Episode 20 — I Can No More

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 20 - “I Can No More”
Published on April 13, 2021

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Katherine Gehred. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by Jesse Serfilippi, an interpreter at the Schuyler Mansion State Historic Site in Albany, New York. Those of you who are tapped into history drama, maybe on Twitter, as I certainly am, might recognize your name as the author of a recent article looking into Alexander Hamilton as an enslaver. The piece which is called "As Odious and Immoral Thing: Alexander Hamilton's Hidden History as an Enslaver" has been making a few wakes in History World. Hello, Jesse.

Jesse Serfilippi

Hi! Thanks for having me on.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and looking forward to this. So, I'm just going to read your thesis statement quite quickly, because I really enjoyed it. "Not only did Alexander Hamilton enslaved people, but his involvement in the institution of slavery was essential to his identity, both personally and professionally. The denial and obscuration of these facts in nearly every major biography written about him over the past two centuries, has erased the people he enslaved from history. It has also created and perpetuated a false and incomplete picture of Hamilton as a man and founding father." So, you didn't really pull any punches with that one.

Jesse Serfilippi

No.

Kathryn Gehred

What inspired you to look into Hamilton's role as an enslaver?

Jesse Serfilippi

So, one of the things in general that I guess drew me to my current job, actually, was seeing at Schuyler mansion, they were researching slavery, so much, and I was interested in joining them in that. So, when I first started working there, we were researching the people. Philip and Catherine Schuyler enslaved, and we still are, but I began to question well, what about their children? You know, did they continue to enslave people like their parents did? So, I started with one of the sons, and I found out, yes, he did. And then I kind of thought that well, what about the daughters? And as I'm sure you know, one of the issues is there's not a lot of documentation when it comes to women. So of course, I turned to their husbands. And one of my former co-workers Danielle furniture fellow had written a blog post, two blog posts that are on our site blog with the question of did Hamilton enslave people. And I kind of thought back to that as I was working on my own blog posts about their son, Phillip Jeremiah Schuyler, and decided, well, I'll see if I can find the answer to that question. And two years later, I found an answer.

Kathryn Gehred 

So before we dig into it, can you just tell me like sort of a broad who are the Schuyler family and what's their significance to New York?

Jesse Serfilippi

Sure. So the Schuyler family, I guess, first of all, they're very connected to another powerful family, Philip Schuyler, marries Catherine Van Rensselaer, she comes from one of the wealthiest families in New York. So combined, they're like this power couple. You know, they're kind of they are on the scale of like the Washington's, are friends with the Washington's they host them at different times. So, they're politically important. Schuyler becomes militarily important when he is chosen by George Washington to be a major general found on the outset of the American Revolutionary War. He commands the northern department, and he is removed from command by the Continental Congress, which is probably why he's not as much in the history books. But, he was really important, and I think one of the things that he didn't get credit for really was his role in the battles of Saratoga. He was important in the lead up to that and in keeping General Burgoyne from getting there sooner, but he was removed from command before the battles could happen. So, that's why he's not there. But the family in general, were really well known. They're politically influential, they had a lot of money, and they educated their children, including the daughters really well.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay. So a lot of historians are well aware, but I feel like the general public still has this sort of surprise when they find out that the North and New York was a slaveholding state very much at this time. So the Schuyler family was a slaveholding family is something that you've you talked about, yeah,

Jesse Serfilippi

Yes, they enslaved anywhere between about eight to fourteen people in any given year from what we can currently tell, and we believe enslaved over forty people throughout the course of their forty years of living at Schuyler mansion.

Kathryn Gehred 

What sources did you look into when you were looking at Alexander Hamilton as someone who may have own slaves?

Jesse Serfilippi

Yes. So, the main sources were primary sources, like his cash books, those were they ended up as my main go to I didn't think of them from the outset. I actually had a letter from Philip Schuyler to Hamilton that implied he was purchasing two enslaved people for Hamilton and the letter that Hamilton would have written back was missing, and that kind of bothered me. So, I decided I had to find the response, and the response really was in the cash book where he recorded that transaction and paying Philip Schuyler for a woman and child. So, that kind of led me to really going through his two cash books with a fine tooth comb. I've read them so many times, and I also ended up using Philip Schuyler's letters to Eliza, which are really invaluable in a lot of cases. But because Schuyler's letters remain largely on touch, they were on edit it, whereas Hamilton's there's some missing, there's some that are crossed out at times. With Schuyler, you can kind of get the full picture, even though otherwise this side of the conversation is not there.

Kathryn Gehred 

That is fascinating, because I think a lot of times, people sort of assume because there's so many like Hamilton documents, right? And there's all these volumes and volumes of Washington books and Hamilton books and Jefferson books, that you're getting everything perfectly. But it's such a fantastic point that a lot of the times people who are choosing which letters to publish, in which letters make it are making conscious choices in a way that will lead to a certain perspective of someone and really interesting that that hasn't happened for Philip Schuyler.

Jesse Serfilippi

It is very interesting that it hasn't happened. Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred 

Kudos for looking into cash books. That's where we found out that George Washington's teeth probably came from enslaved people, that's where some of the more blunt facts about slavery turn up in these financial papers, and these books that might have either been edited out or just wouldn't have been discussed politely in correspondence. They're great resources for that, but they're not like fun to read.

Jesse Serfilippi

They're not but you put it perfectly. They're really great for that. And without them, you know that letters probably gone forever. So without it, we will not know that he purchased these two enslaved people.

Kathryn Gehred 

What led you to write your article that it started as a blog post and it turned into something bigger? Did people ask you to write a longer piece about it?

Jesse Serfilippi

So, I guess I thought like I write a blog post, because I just written one on Phillip Jeremiah Schuyler and slavery. So I thought, oh, I'll write one on, you know, Alexander and Elizabeth Hamilton, and you know, that shouldn't take too long. And, it ended up being a little bit longer than I expected, and as I was researching it, I realized that this was outgrowing something that can be put on the blog, but I just kept going because it felt like it was something important to do. And I was discovering things that had been there the whole time, but it's just going into the archives and looking for something else that maybe other historians haven't looked for it before. And, you can do that with a lot of topics, but it was also because we are giving this focus tour on Hamilton and slavery in the Schuyler's life and in his life, that's a part of that tour. So, the more I discovered as I was researching, the more I could add into the tour, and eventually we decided we can't tell everyone everything on this tour, there's just not enough time. In general, there was not enough time, we wanted people to be able to engage with this information themselves. Because even though I would often tell them you know where I got it from, it's one thing for me to be like go on the founders online website, and then, you know, it's another thing for me to be able to say, 'Hey, if you go on our website, you can read this paper, and it has all the sources you can look at.' So we're really aiming to have something for the public that was coming to our site to be able to continue engaging with.

Kathryn Gehred 

Okay, this article kind of took off. It's been getting national and international news. So there's been a little bit of hubbub about it, which is exciting, and it's definitely I think it's starting a really important conversation. Oh, and one other thing I want to point out is I think that it's really cool that you point out the fact that these aren't like brand new documents like other people have talked about these documents, but sometimes what you need is a new lens, and sometimes what you need is a different perspective. Maybe take your little sort of heroic lens of Hamilton off and just look at the facts and just look at the harm that he caused and other people's lives. Yes, and that is a valuable a addition to this conversation, even if you haven't found some, like brand spanking hidden in a cupboard document that no one's ever seen before.

Jesse Serfilippi

Yeah, exactly.

Kathryn Gehred

Did anything about the response to your article surprise you?

Jesse Serfilippi

A lot of it did. First of all, I didn't expect much of a response. Because, you know, I, we published it on our parks web page, we shared it, and that was kind of that. And I thought, you know what, it would get some attention, I thought it'd be kind of slow, I guess, the attention that we get. And then local reporter for The Daily Gazette, asked to interview me, and from there, things took off. I did not ever think the New York Times would want to interview me over this article. So, I guess I did not predict any of their responses about to get but one thing I learned through it all was there is an awesome community of historians out there who really supported me through this and Schuyler Mansion, everyone, you know, at the kind of historic bureau of preservation also really supported me. Even when there was some disagreements with what I published.

Kathryn Gehred 

Just talking about slavery. And there's always this inevitable, negative backlash. So I'm really glad that you have people who have your back, as it's important, and that's part of the reason people don't have the conversation, because there's always this sort of wave of backlash. And I just, I want to just point out, like how common it is for national park sites to put these PDF articles online, and for nobody to read them.

Jesse Serfilippi

That's why I was really surprised.

Kathryn Gehred 

That was sort of background of Jesse's historical work, but I don't want to make this whole episode just about Alexander Hamilton, some Women's History podcast, we want to talk about the Schuyler Sisters a little bit. So, I will link to Jesse's article. And if if you don't mind, I could use it. Your colleague had some blog posts on your site that you...

Jesse Serfilippi

Yeah, yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

And so I'll put some of this in my show notes so you can read up and follow up on your own. But, we decided that we're going to do a Elizabeth Schuyler Hamilton letter. The Schuyler sisters are so great as characters in Hamilton, but what in your opinion, after doing all this research and digging, did Lin-Manuel Miranda get right and what did he get wrong?

Jesse Serfilippi

Yes. So I think one of the main things he got right with the Schuyler Sisters of portraying how close they are Angelica, Eliza and Peggy seem to be like a unit, because they're born within three years. So yeah, they're very close in age and they kind of, yeah, educated together. They remain close through adulthood, it seems. So, he really portrays that well. The I think most obvious thing that isn't right in the musical when it comes to the Schuylers is there were more kids. Katherine, Katherine actually had fifteen children overall. And one of the like, wildest things is that her oldest Angelica and her youngest, Katie shared a birthday twenty-five years apart, I know. And, Catherine sadly lost seven of those children. She had twins and triplets among those children, before their first birthday. So there were other Schuyler Sisters, there were three sons, but I totally get the creative choice to say you guys don't make the cut. That's a lot of kids

Kathryn Gehred 

Be really long song sort of introducing themselves.

Jesse Serfilippi

So long. And, I guess the other thing that I typically talk about is the Angelica Hamilton relationship. One of the other things in the musical that I wouldn't say is exactly right.

Kathryn Gehred 

Tell me a little bit about the letter that you picked, and what made you choose it.

Jesse Serfilippi

I chose this letter because first of all, I like Eliza, I find her fascinating person. And because this is one of two letters, that it still exists to our knowledge from before Hamilton's death. So for fifty years, for first fifty years of life, we've got two letters, this is to Angelica, the other ones actually to Peggy. So, I find that very fitting that both of surviving letters to her sisters, and I chose this one because I don't know how well known it is because I know a lot of people will know from the musical that she destroys those letters from the first fifty years of her life. So, I think it's important to highlight one of the two that have survived.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, the letter that we're going to read today is from Elizabeth Hamilton to her sister Angelica. The letter is from 1789. So at this point, Elizabeth Schuyler Hamilton is thirty-two years old, and her sister Angelica Schuyler Church is 33. Elizabeth has been married to Alexander Hamilton for about nine years, and Angelica has been married to John Barker church for about twelve years. So, so just real fast right there. That's something that does not turn up in the Hamilton musical. Angelica was actually married.

Jesse Serfilippi

Yes.

Kathryn Gehred

So, so Angelica was married to John Parker Church for a while. Alright, to get into the context of exactly what's going on at this time 1789 George Washington had appointed Alexander Hamilton Secretary of the Treasury just two months before this letter was written. So things are really picking up for Alexander Hamilton and Elizabeth at this time, and Angelica Schuyler Church was actually living in England with her husband, but she had come back for a visit. So why is Elizabeth writing to Angelica at this particular moment,

Jesse Serfilippi

I think it really is because she had just been there, and now she's, you know, on the boat back to England, and Elizabeth seems to be expressing just kind of the raw feelings that she has about Angelica leaving, and that uncertainty of when they're going to see each other again. So, I think she's kind of just putting it down on paper, what she feels about Angelica, having just been there and she didn't get to stay for long either. It was a very short visit, and that's always stayed in my mind, since that void just not easy or short itself that she actually came back for such a short time. But, um, you know, I think she's writing to her, just because she misses her.

Kathryn Gehred 

With that context. I'll go ahead and read the letter.

"Elizabeth Hamilton to Angelica Church, 8 November 1789. My very dear, beloved Angelica, I have seated myself to write to you but my heart is so saddened by your absence, that it can scarcely dictate. My eyes, so filled with tears, that I shall not be able to write you much. But remember, remember, my dear sister of the assurances of your returning to us, and do all you can to make your absence short. Tell Mr. Church for me of the happiness you will give me and bringing you to me, not to me alone, but to fond parents, sisters, friends, and to my Hamilton, who has for you all the affection of a fond own brother, I can no more. Adieu. Adieu. E.H."

So what about this letter strikes you as interesting,

Jesse Serfilippi

what really got me is just the emotion behind it. I it's clear how much Eliza loves Angelica, how she misses her, how badly she wants her to be with her New York, and it really gives us a look into that sisterly bond that we can see is there from other letters, but not from Eliza's perspective.

Kathryn Gehred 

I totally agree that you get it's very raw emotion in this letter, which you don't get in a lot of eighteenth century letters, in my opinion, like, it's something that you sort of have to sit down and write and be careful about, and sometimes you write more than one draft. But this is short, it's clearly something that she just wrote from the heart and just sent off. So, it's a really beautiful sort of snapshot, I think, into their relationship. I, as I was trying to find out more about exactly what's going on at this time found a letter to, uh, so I found another letter. So this is sort of Angelica's response, I think to this one, but she's writing it to Alexander Hamilton, although although the date, the dating that they give things is different. So, maybe they're reading these at the exact same time and they cross paths. That's also possibility to you.

Jesse Serfilippi

I think so. Yeah.

Kathryn Gehred

So, they're both thinking about each other and they're writing at the exact same time. Alright, so here's Angelica is letter to Alexander Hamilton. They don't know exactly when it's written. They're saying sometime from 5 to 7 November 1789.

"I have almost vowed not to stay three weeks in England. My Baron desires me to write "beaucoup de pitifully" but I am not much disposed for gaiety, and yet I endeavor already to make myself tolerable to my fellow passengers, that my sweet friends advice may not be lost on me. Do my dear brother endeavor to soothe my poor Betsy, comfort her with the assurances that I will certainly return to take care of her soon. Remember this also yourself my dearest brother, and let neither politics or ambition drive your Angelica from your affections. The pilot leaves us this evening he will call on you with my letter. Adieu my dear brother, may God bless and protect you. Praise your ever affectionate Angelica ever, ever yours. Bitter whilst in the sight of my friends thus far my dear brother, I am content with my company and apparently they with me, but how can I be content when I leave my best and most invaluable friends? Adieu my dear Hamilton, you said I was as dear to you as a sister. Keep your word and let me have the constellation to believe that you will never forget the promise of friendship you have vowed. A thousand embraces to my dear Betsy, she will not have so bed at night as the last, but poor Angelica. Adieu men cher, my best affectionate wishes to my Baron S'em to lafont"

And that's the end of the letter. It says packet, six o'clock all well on board. So that's probably a note from the people delivering the letter. The Baron that she's talking about is Baron von Steuben, who is a friend of Angelica is. So she's mentioning sort of all of her old Revolutionary War buddies that Hamilton will still be talking to. So, with sort of this letter combined with the other letter, what in your opinion, do you think this tells us about the relationship between Angelica, Elizabeth and Alexander?

Jesse Serfilippi

Yeah, I love these two letters in the context of each other. I think it once again shows that sisterly bond because the opening and closing we see concern for Eliza. Angelica knows how upset she is at their separation. She's looking out for her even from her voyage across the Atlantic. It hits on the theme between Angelica and Hamilton as well and they shared the sibling like bond too, he seems to be part of the family and to be accepted by Angelica, who is so close to Eliza as kind of Schuyler brother, I guess you could say. He's one of the Schuylers now, I find it interesting too, that she's she wants him to write to her. I think that they you know, they do share really great letters back and forth. They're very intellectually witty with each other, and you know, I know in the musical they they have this bit of a romantic undertone, to say the least. But, if you read the letters, they constantly call themselves brother and sister and I think this letter, we can see that beginning to happen.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, and I think this is another example of like, what lens you look at a letter through because I think if you if you look at these letters thinking Angelica is in love with Hamilton, you can read this as something a little bit, almost bitter like very, very much the way that Miranda writes it. But if you take those glasses off, and you read it as somebody who writes flirty with everybody, I love Angelica, I love all of her letters, but this is just how she writes with people. She's also been living in France for a while and this is how French women write to people. It just comes across as flirtier, and she's mostly talking about Elizabeth. She's talking about hug Betsy, embrace Betsy, like you're my brother. Make sure Betsy is okay. I feel like really, Elizabeth is the focus of this one.

Jesse Serfilippi

Definitely she is.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, so I can understand where that tape comes from. But it doesn't have quite as much historical backing as people want. When I my first introduction to Angelica Schuyler Church was not from anything really about Hamilton, but was because of her correspondence to Thomas Jefferson. She.

Jesse Serfilippi

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jesse Serfilippi

People will say that they were having an affair all the time, too. And I'm like, it's interesting that people say she's having an affair with every person she writes with. Digging into the research and the documents at the Schuyler house, what insight do you have about sort of the sibling relationship, and even Peggy in there and the other siblings? What was their relationship? Like?

Jesse Serfilippi

It's really through letters that we kind of understand what the relationships were like. And one thing in this letter in particular, is that Angelica, she mentioned something about caring for Eliza saying I'll come back to take care of her soon. I think I'm misquoting it exactly, but I found that interesting, because we know historically that Angelica, Eliza and Peggy, when they were between the ages of like eight and ten, they were sent into New York City and they lived with relatives, and that's where they were educated. So, they're away from home there with this and relatives. So, you could think they might rely on each other, and I think this could potentially back that up a bit that Angelica here is clearly playing the role of an older sister still, even though there's very close in age, and that, that closeness I would imagine came from childhood and remain through adulthood, but that's up for interpretation. We know the older three sisters were close, we see them kind of tease Peggy in letters. Angelica will write to Eliza asking about Peggy at one point she uses this whole euphemism from the time asking if Peggy bears any usefulness to the Commonwealth yet, after her marriage to Steven Van Rensselaer, so it's her way of saying is Peggy pregnant yet? It's fascinating that really, Angelica and Eliza seem to share the most correspondence but Peggy comes up in those letters and Angelica will often be like, hey, get Peggy to write to me. Whereas, they don't really talk about their brothers that much and that's probably because the next surviving children are considerably younger than them. You know, the Schuyler Sisters, as we think of them, the oldest three are born in the late 1750s, and Phillip Jeremiah Schuyler, and Johnny, so Johnny's, the eldest, and Philip Jeremiah, the younger brother, they're born in the 1760s. And, then the youngest brothers born in 1773. And then we have two more daughters born after that. So, they're so far apart in age that Angelica and Eliza, their children are really more like friends to their youngest sibling than you know, an aunt and niece or nephew relationship there. So it's a completely different thing for say, Eliza and the youngest sister, Katie, I think is interesting, because we know she lives with the Hamiltons while she's being educated. So, you can only imagine what that relationship is like, she's my sister, but she's kind of like in control of my life, you know, from Katie's point of view. So, I've always wondered what that is like. And because there are actually letters between them only from Eliza's aside once they're much, much older. I wonder how that impacted that relationship later on?

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, different from like the close sibling camaraderie. Yeah, it would be more complicated than that. I do notice even in Elizabeth's letter she mentions try to convince Mr. Church to send you back to me. Do you know how the family felt about Angelica's husband? Because she seems like very much patriotic American. She came back to America for the, for the inauguration. So she's clearly very patriotic to be living in England with John Barker Church. Do you know how the family felt about that?

Jesse Serfilippi

Yeah, so it's off to a rocky start. They do elope, so that that's gonna set the tone a bit and they actually are the first out of four Schuyler children to elope we have a unusually high elopement rate in the family. I would say it's not a great relationship right away. Actually, they will not speak with her parents for about two weeks until her maternal grandfather kind of interferes and manages to get her in John Barker church and her parents to meet and kind of make up for what's happened. And at that point, Schuyler does say he accepts him as a son, but he we don't see at least in letters that closeness that he has a with Hamilton. Hamilton he outright calls the son in certain letters, whereas there's there's this letter, I forget which child is to where Philip Schuyler basically says after hearing, John Barker church just won this like, wild amount of money over in England gambling. He's like, I wish he lost it all, and that he would just stop gambling. Um, so I think they disagreed in some ways, but the whole way that John Barker Church really, I think, meets Angelica, as far as I'm aware is because he is actually working using a false name at the time with the Continental Congress. So she is marrying someone who's English but he isn't a loyalist, I guess you would say, you know, he's working with the Americans and they seem to have a very passionate romance. I would say for her to agree to elope with him. She's smart. She knew what she was doing. She knew what she wanted, and she went and got it.

Kathryn Gehred 

Do people think he was like a spy? Like why was he going by a false name at that time?

Jesse Serfilippi

There's a few theories. And I actually do not know which one is true. I don't know if anyone does actually, if anyone it will be my former coworker I mentioned earlier Danielle Funiciello who's writing a biography on Angelica. Okay. But there's one version is he was in a duel in England, and he thought he killed the guy, so he came over to America under a false name. I don't know how true that is. I think the other version is probably closer to the truth, which is he was in debt. Partially from a failed business venture, which I don't think was entirely his fault. I think some of it was inherited. It partially could be from gambling based on what we see later on.

Kathryn Gehred 

Some gambling rumors.

Jesse Serfilippi

Gambling, and one thing that I think really supports that, historically, is that when they leave the United States at the end of the war, they go to Paris or him to collect the money he is earned, because he ends up making a lot of money from the war, and they go to England where I believe that's when he pays off his debts. And then 'oh, I'm you know, John Barker Church again,' I'm no longer John Carter and Angelica switches her name. And, you know, it's it's a mess of names.

Kathryn Gehred 

Martha Washington's always like, say hello to Mrs. Carter. This is Angelica Schuyler Church. Like, I can see again, why this didn't make it into the musical, but it's also very dramatic and interesting.

Jesse Serfilippi

Right!

Kathryn Gehred

So alright, so to sort of sum up a lot of times when I finished one of these letters, I asked my guests, is there anything that when you read this letter just really resonates with you, as something that you recognize it feels like it something that you could almost feel today, something modern?

Jesse Serfilippi

Absolutely. So, I think this letter is very pertinent to where we are right now in history. You know, we see Eliza longing for Angelica to come back, we see the pain and their separation, and I think that's something a lot of us can relate to right now is a lot of us have separated from people we love. And, I think Eliza is really raw motion at that could be something that a lot of us might want to say to a loved one, whether or not we feel we can, she feels she can which speaks to their relationship. And, I guess I want to say, for them, it's good news, they get reunited. Angelica does come back and live in New York City permanently in 1797. So, at the time this letter was written, that was all uncertain, they didn't know if for one she'd ever be back. And eventually, she comes back, eventually, they're back together. And, you know, we're living in an uncertain time as well. So hopefully, this gives us a bit of hope.

Kathryn Gehred 

That is so sweet, but yeah, the human emotions are the same. Something that is different, obviously, is like, because nowadays, we have stuff like zoom, and you can keep in touch with people so much easier. For her to be going to England, that is a huge distance. It's dangerous travel, it's you can get sick, you can die. It's difficult. Medical science wasn't very advanced back then you really didn't know when somebody was going on one of these long trips. If you'd ever see them again, and writing correspondence was, you could definitely keep in touch with somebody that way, but it took a long time, and it was complicated. Could be three months before a letter that you wrote in England arrived in New York. So she is I'm sure after having missed her sister for that time to have her sister visit and sort of remember how fun and how close they are, and then just to have her go back after such a short visit was a rough, I completely understand. And I do think there's a little hint in there, where she says Angelica says she will not have so bad tonight as the last night just imagining that last night they spent together was just so sad before she got on that boat.

Jesse Serfilippi

This letter just it does make me emotional because you really see how close they were and can like you said, just imagine how sad they were at the separation and like you were saying about the chance of Angelica dying on the voyage, or later on, Angelica writes letters to Eliza where she's like I fear will die before I ever see you again. If anyone wants to read their correspondence, it is pretty touching, I would say.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much for joining me today. Jesse, this was really interesting, and I really enjoyed speaking with you.

Jesse Serfilippi

Thank you. Thank you for having me on, and I love talking about the Schuylers. So, thank you for indulging me in that.

Kathryn Gehred 

Well and I talked about so many Southern women, it's nice to get some Yankees in there. Thank you so much. And, as for my listeners, make sure you check the show notes I'm gonna be linking to a lot of really interesting outside reading. I'll link to where you can read this letter and some of, at least some of Angelica's correspondence, that turns up in Founders Online. As ever, I am your most obedient and humble servant. Thank you very much.